My thoughts on stealth, and a rework

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SerrlinVara
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Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:17 pm

My thoughts on stealth, and a rework

#1 Post by SerrlinVara » Thu Dec 12, 2019 6:42 pm

So, as it is now....stealth is used for hiding, obviously. however,I'd like to propose several ideas.

First off. Light level matters. What this meanss practically, is it's harder to sneak or hide in broad daylight or a room with a lot of torches. Conversely, you'd be harder to spot at night, making it easier to hide. However, unless you got some sort of a lantern or nightvision....it's also easier for mobs to sneak up on players. It works both ways.

For example. In the daytime, Varaliana, being dressed in Sinshade armor, sticks out like a sore thumb even with max stealth. At night, in a dark tundra, she'dd blend in easier, but it'd be harder for her to spot polar bears, yetis, et cetera due to the darkness without her having night vision.

2. The ability to affect room light levels to affect how effective stealth is. For example.

I enter a room that states in its description it has flickering torches on the walls. I should be able to think ahead, bring a bucket and water, and douse those torches, making the room darker one torch at a time. Conversely, if I want to, I can get a tinder box and light the torches one at a time.

3. Spotting by mobs.

Simply put. This needs to change. Because I feel like this is too fast. I'd rather you be spotted, have a few moments to react, instead of instantly being pulled out of stealth. I'd like to suggest the following:

You get spotted
You get advanced on
You get a few moments depending on mob level to figure out what to do, smoke bomb, recall, shadow/sstral walk or however you deal with it
If nothing happens, you then get pulled out of stealth and attacked.

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Cahl
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Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 8:20 pm

Re: My thoughts on stealth, and a rework

#2 Post by Cahl » Fri Dec 13, 2019 3:12 pm

My thoughts on this:

Smoke screen is great, but does it give a bonus when you're not hidden? If so, I don't notice anything. The obvious bonus when hidden is that you can attack with a backstab. It also mentions an accuracy pentalty for enemies, but not sure that's a thing now. I really only use smoke screen as a way to get out of combat, that's it.
EDIT: I did not see the change that you can't be spotted with smoke screen up, that turns this ability into a pretty amazing ability, really incredible actually.


Silent escape is good when it works, but I wish it happened more often, or always, it wouldn't even be that broken to make it always since it would only benefit the first hit (unless it pulled you out of combat)

Smoke bomb I never use because why would i throw it into another room when I can just keep it up in the room i'm in where it actually benefits me

Shadow walk is awesome, but needs to have it's unbalance time removed after you do it. You're just begging to get smacked around by the enemy you just shadowed to.

Assassination is amazing, please leave it as is. Though I admit it would not be as near as powerful in the hands of a normal, mortal being.

-----------

I somewhat agree that hide isn't super useful overall. I use it to pull myself out of combat with smoke screen, but it's not like it's worth spamming out and backstabbing back into combat with it, I could possibly do more damage by just spamming my attacks. (depending on crits, etc.) I sometimes remember to hide before hand even entering combat, but besides the first hit, it's pretty negligible, but that first hit is probably the whole reason hide/backstab is there.

My bigger issue is with how hard i'm getting hit at high levels, wall of ice is a must, but that's another debate.
EDIT: You know, i'm looking at my build again, and maybe i'm getting hit so much because I have only 9 acrobatics, which is keeping my dodge so low (in dodge gear, only about 11%). So I think i'll test with 20 acrobatics and get back to you.

EDIT2: Also ---- dodge 100% needs to work against magical attacks. it makes sense that parry/block wouldn't work against it, but dodge needs to work against it. Even if you had the absolute max dodge (40%?) you wouldn't even dodge half of the time theoretically. Just a thought.

SerrlinVara
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:17 pm

Re: My thoughts on stealth, and a rework

#3 Post by SerrlinVara » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:23 pm

IMO smoke bomb could be rolled into smoke screen, and give the spot to something that makes it worth having, yes. I just don't think smoke bomb's useful except in very limited situations.

As for the unbalance time on shadow walk, agreed, or tone down the unbalance time, 6s is too long in my opinion, tone it down to 1-2s, that way if I shadow walk to a mob, let's say a bandit, I don't get insta-attacked. Or as a thought, remove the unbalance time for shadow walk, but then have something like a 1s unbalanace time for attacks or some lore friendly thing to say why you can't insta attack, since I feel insta attacking out of shadow walk would be a little unfair really.

As for the replacement for smoke bomb? I'm not sure, but something that fits both the stealth tree and level 16 in it. Maybe a device to move mobs out of the room, think a distraction lure like a throwable coin or something.

So for example, I enter a room with a hostile mob, I don't want to fight it since I know it's going to one shot me. I throw a coin, the mob goes to investigate and i slip through. There'd obviously be a cooldown of 2-3s. The mob would come back into the room after a set period of time and gets done investigating, and certain mobs (think bosses) would be immune to it. I feel like this would fit nicely around where the smoke bomb is and be in keeping with stealth. Because come on, throwing a coin is a trope for stealth everythhing.

Code
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:32 pm

Re: My thoughts on stealth, and a rework

#4 Post by Code » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:04 pm

I'll start off by saying that stealth will be getting a few changes in the next update, some of which is based on this thread, so thanks for the input.

While we could make light a more discernable factor, I'm not sure it would be worth implementing anything too complex, as you described. While I agree that would make for some interesting scenarios, it starts going down a path of an uncanny valley. Players will start wondering why they can't use magic, or their enchanted sword, or breathe fire. I just don't have the necessary skills to pull off something like that.

As for smokescreen, the intended use is so that you can hide while in combat. Normally, you are unable to hide while a monster is in the room. This should let you hide/attack for higher damage as well as more chances to assassinate. If you feel it isn't worth going that route, I may have to take a closer look as it is intended to be a pretty strong combination.

Wren
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:54 am

Re: My thoughts on stealth, and a rework

#5 Post by Wren » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:14 pm

Code wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:04 pm I'll start off by saying that stealth will be getting a few changes in the next update, some of which is based on this thread, so thanks for the input.

While we could make light a more discernable factor, I'm not sure it would be worth implementing anything too complex, as you described. While I agree that would make for some interesting scenarios, it starts going down a path of an uncanny valley. Players will start wondering why they can't use magic, or their enchanted sword, or breathe fire. I just don't have the necessary skills to pull off something like that.

As for smokescreen, the intended use is so that you can hide while in combat. Normally, you are unable to hide while a monster is in the room. This should let you hide/attack for higher damage as well as more chances to assassinate. If you feel it isn't worth going that route, I may have to take a closer look as it is intended to be a pretty strong combination.
Thanks for the update! I've been mulling a similar post for other skill trees. Should I suspend judgment until the engine update, or would you rather have feedback now?

SerrlinVara
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2019 3:17 pm

Re: My thoughts on stealth, and a rework

#6 Post by SerrlinVara » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:58 pm

I still think smoke bomb being rolled into smoke screen would take care of both IMO, though. Since to my way of thinking they do the same thing and they take up two level slots. And given Greg agreed on the MUD.....and also said a distraction ability would work...

Question is what though? I've been playing a lot of MGS recently (yay for getting it to work with screenreaders), so I'm thinking a generic distract ability that can always distract one mob. Or if it hits th right modifier, distract a room full of mobs. But this should be rare, though you should always distract one mob.

Also @Code: I was trying to keep it simple and help out hide with the light thing, but you got a good point on that. I'm still trying to think hide could be made more useful

I'm torn on how I feel the distract should work. Should mobs have difficulties to distract, a la steal, and a chance. Or should it be distract = always distracts one mob?

One thing I'll throw out (no pun intencded) is the thought you must be hidden to distract, or in a smoke screen however, that way you're not seen distracting things, and you provide a direction, i.e. distract n

Code
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2018 4:32 pm

Re: My thoughts on stealth, and a rework

#7 Post by Code » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:16 pm

Wren wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:14 pm
Code wrote: Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:04 pm I'll start off by saying that stealth will be getting a few changes in the next update, some of which is based on this thread, so thanks for the input.

While we could make light a more discernable factor, I'm not sure it would be worth implementing anything too complex, as you described. While I agree that would make for some interesting scenarios, it starts going down a path of an uncanny valley. Players will start wondering why they can't use magic, or their enchanted sword, or breathe fire. I just don't have the necessary skills to pull off something like that.

As for smokescreen, the intended use is so that you can hide while in combat. Normally, you are unable to hide while a monster is in the room. This should let you hide/attack for higher damage as well as more chances to assassinate. If you feel it isn't worth going that route, I may have to take a closer look as it is intended to be a pretty strong combination.
Thanks for the update! I've been mulling a similar post for other skill trees. Should I suspend judgment until the engine update, or would you rather have feedback now?
Feel free to post any ideas, suggestions, and critiques you may have. We take a look at everything, so it never hurts.

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